What is your opinion of the Freshwater controversy?
Related Stories: Freshwater Controversy
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- Investigator cross examined by Freshwater lawyer –01-06-09
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95 Responses to “ What is your opinion of the Freshwater controversy?”
It is not possible to argue doctrine and come to an agreement unless both people are of the same belief system. If one person believes that evolution is true, and another believes that creation is true, then they will never agree. This is why there are more than 2000 protestant denominations in the world today. Only those who give ultimate authority to Jesus and beleive His Words to be true above all others will come into agreement in all things because He is the teacher of the class. He is the one who decides what is true.
Religeon and churches give God a bad reputation. If you are disolutioned or confused by religeon and churches, then just go to Jesus Himself and find out what is truth. He will not let you down as humans will.
There are three things that He wants to teach all humans. 1. How to love God and other people. 2. How to live by faith (faith is simply believing God’s Word to be true). 3. How to be led by His Spirit. If we are not willing to receive correction, then we wil not receive direction. We all have free choice and a will. We choose to attend “class” or not.
To Victoria: Everyone uses Jefferson and places him in such a high position of one of our founding fathers. Here’s what some of our other founding fathers said about the church.
“Lighthouses are more useful than churches” – Benjamin Franklin
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it” – John Adams
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” – Thomas Jefferson, who incidentally wrote a version of the Bible entitled “The Faith and Moral Teachings of Jesus the Nazareth.” Where Jefferson took out the mysticism out of Jesus’ gospels.
Religion is allowed in school. John Freshwater’s religion isn’t allowed. John Freshwater has used his position of authority to state “Catholics aren’t christians.” He’s not allowed to make that distinction at all. And for him to say that “Catholics aren’t christians” is judgemental. Which isn’t a position allowed in the debate of science, nor in Christianity. Regardless if the burn is disputed or not, Freshwater was given instructions from his employer for which he failed to do. It is not christian persecution. It’s not an evil school board versus a good christian man. Anyone that wants to boil it down to the simplistic of facts, ignoring all of the facts, so people can sleep easy at night, is ignorance. Just like John Freshwater’s ignorance of “Catholics aren’t christians.”
I think this whole thing has gone on too long. It has become a witch hunt with Mr. Freshwater the unfortunate catch. Mr. Freshwater is more than qualified to teach and has taught my children well. I have three who have passed through his classes and none of them have come out of his class damaged physically, spiritually or educationally. What I think is awful is that seperation of church and state is a non-issue. It was never meant to be an issue in the first place. As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Danbury Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802, “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.” It is very clear that Thomas Jefferson was stating that government should not be involved in creating a wall between man and his religion. Nowhere does it state that religion cannot be a part of school or government. That is what this whole John Freshwater thing is about. In my opinion, if we can teach our children that they ‘evolved’, then they should also be taught that they were created as well. It is just basic, good education to teach both sides of a subject that is controvrersial, isn’t it? John Freshwater – I am behind you 100%.
Continuing evidence of the ineptness and spinelessness of our so called “public servants”. If this person had committed the same type of transgressions in the private sector he would have been gone long ago with no fanfare or avenue for recourse. The public sector should be more strict than the private sector but for some reason (public officials use government to hide bad performers and underachievers) it isn’t.
Shame, shame, shame on the school administration and the school board. Neither is doing their job and should be replaced as quickly as possible. If I were one of them, I would be looking to relocate where no one knows me!
Regards
I have received quite an education from these posts. Let’s forget about Mr. Freshwater and religion for a minute and concentrate on the teachers who are responding to this issue. The last one I read was from “so yeah”. Apparently, you are a public school teacher that cannot write coherently or spell. Where in this world did you go to school? It seems that the best solution to this issue is to fire all of the public school teachers and start over. This is unbelievable!
I hope this teacher who posted the comment would learn how to spell before teaching our children. As for John , I say give it up . We have a hard enough time financing the schools without this dragging on forever. The money could be spent in better places. Like refresher courses on spelling . Sorry , just could not resist that one.
Alli-
you say that we are trying to get christians out of public schools. LIES.
All that i ask, of myself as a public school teacher and others that i teach with. Is that we leave our own religious beliefs at the door. Not every child in MTV is christian. I grew up with several jewish friends in the knox county area. the amount of abuse they recieved, simply because he was jewish, by fellow christain students was absurd. While you call kids resiliant 15 times in your little rant. Should we call them resiliant when thier beliefs are shredded by an adult, a teacher, an authority figure.
All that i ask is that we teach our children truths. Not MYTHS ( like religion ) If you want your child to learn about religion. Send them to St. Vincents. Mansfield St Peters, Mansfield Christian, worthington christian. Or keep your kid at home and home school them.
Isn’t it ironic? Patricia Princehouse is tesitying against what Freshwater is teaching. Seventy-Five years ago she would have been on trial for teaching evolution.
Alli- If you read testimony and reports you see this child is an honest Christian child. (his religion was mentioned on many articles) There are also well liked adults who do things that people would never think they would do. You are correct the only people who know what happened are the child, Mr Freshwater, God and the whole classroom that witnessed it. if you are seeking the truth, it appears the truth has not been coming from Mr Freshwaters side. There have been many things contradicted.
Prayer can still be in schools, just not teacher lead prayers.
could we please just finish this. how much MORE time and money is the school and freshwater going to waste. face it john, they want you gone. end of story. some people just don’t get the hint do they?????
i believe that alot of people are sick and tired of reading and hearing about this. boring.
The only person who benefits from this fiasco is the attorney walking away with buckets of money.
MDK…want you to know, I love kids. My heart goes out to the 13 year old child. My concern is that people in general are dishonest whether they are 5 or 95. There are alot of 13 year old children that are defiant and dishonest. There have been many 13 years that have been violent in school, harming other children and teachers. Just this week here in Ohio, A junior high student stabbed another child while getting off the bus. There are teens that are looking for ways to harm themselves. Some examples would be; the ABC game, cutting, drugs, and alcohol. Would it be impossible for a 13 year old to make an exaggeration of the circumstances? Technology has made it much easier to be dishonest. Has the picture been enhanced?
There is a 13 year old child involved and as a Christian the only thing I am seeking (concerning both parties) is the truth.
The truth however is not up to us to decide.
Truth is Truth. God and the child know the truth about this.
There was also a child involved when prayer was removed from the schools. His name was William. His mom was Madalyn Murray O’hair, she was a strong atheist. She wanted her child to have nothing to do with prayer. William eventually was saved and became a preacher. I would imagine William was in a real pickle at school during those times. The kids probably gave him a rough way to go. He should have never been put in that situation either.
Life is not easy. Everyone has a different story. For the sake of this child and Freshwater I hope this chapter comes to an end for them soon.
Fire him and fault the former adminstration for not doing it sooner and sending the police on him.
He harmed children, lied about the cross, lied about his intentions, and taught creationism– anti-science religious nonsense. Creationism isn’t even good theology and he even had the gall to show material by Kent Hovind– a snake oil-creationist.
His supporters should also be ashamed. Defending Freshwater in the face of many witnesses and evidence in a poor attempt to claim that he was being criticized for being a Christian when the MAJORITY of people are Christian. A child standing up to a teacher is hard, especially when Freshwater pulled his publicity stunt.
I hope the federal lawsuit causes changes to prevent people like Freshwater for harming students (both physically and educationally).
Also I hope Freshwater never teaches at a public school again.
All of you have entirely way too much time on your hands. You do what your boss tells you to END OF STORY. If my boss asked me to do something and i refused i would be gone, there would be no trial, no news cameras only an unemployment line, why should this be any different? Fire the guy and get it over with already
Alli-
The fact that you would say “We don’t know everything. How could anyone prove that Freshwater burnt this kid? It may look like he did. But, we really don’t know. The kid may have dug at it or have done something to bring the skin to a state that looks like a burn.” proves to me that you need to follow your own advise. Their is a 13 year old Child involved and “Christian” people like you say things like that? Jesus says to protect our children, they are all children of God.
One of the interesting facts about Jesus Christ was that he knew when to whip the sand from his feet. I am a Christian. It’s not easy and it’s not supposed to be. In this world you are constantly surrounded by temptation. Evil is everywhere. Turn on your TV, flip on the computer, the radio, look at the clothes, listen to the words, the pictures, alcohol, drugs, and sex is everywhere. The temptation is not the problem. You deal with it. One of the ways you do that is by putting on the armour. That means reading the Bible, praying, repenting, worshiping and having a relationship with Jesus Christ. You devote your life to Christ. Freshwater is a Christian. That means in order to live in this world the dude has to armour up. Sounds like he did. Having your Bible close by is essential. Ya need it to get through the day.
The Bible on the desk is not a problem. It’s been there for 20 years. I graduated in the early 90’s it was there when I went through. I was not a Christian then and the Bible was not a problem. Lots of Hotels have Bibles in the room. Would you not take your child on vacation for fear that they may see a Bible? There are radio stations that play Christian music. Would you not let your child listen to the radio for fear that they may turn to a Christian Station? Pyschologists will tell you that kids are resilient. When you go through the divorce and they are bouncing back and forth between homes…Is that not hard on them? Dad’s drinking, mom’s working to meet the bills…It’s OK America! KIDS ARE RESILIENT. When the family falls apart does that not hurt? All these things have got to be worse than a kid seeing a Bible on a desk.
We don’t know everything. How could anyone prove that Freshwater burnt this kid? It may look like he did. But, we really don’t know. The kid may have dug at it or have done something to bring the skin to a state that looks like a burn.
I feel bad for the kid and Freshwater….people dragging their feet and passing the buck. There is a bigger problem in our public schools than this. No Child Left Behind…Is leaving all of our children behind. Simple subjects like math, reading and spelling are not being taught as they once were. Our kids do not start with a good foundation, and learning is not something they crave. School is a place to socialize. There is no discipline. The kids run wild with cell phones, calculators…yes calculators. Wonder why there are so many problems in the world…take a look at the public schools.
Teachers may not share their religious beliefs. What about policital views? 2008 Presidential election…many teachers shared political views, that includes; thoughts on Gay marriage, abortion and racism. Should any kid have to even worry about this? Welcome to the world of Narcissism, a place where the only person that matters is you.
I believe that Freshwater had no intention of harming this kid. Freshwater has done alot of good over the years. In the event he is removed from his position, this will only be the beginning of Christians being removed from public schools. Take a Christian…put him on a mountain and offer him the world, still a Christian….In the army behind enemy lines, still a Christian….Jumping from a plane to fight a fire, still a Christian….The President of the United States of America, 2000-2008, still a Christian…..Put a Christian in a public school to teach, dude’s still a Christian. When you pick up the cross you don’t lay it down.
A Gay teacher is Gay. You know who they are.
The Athiest teacher is an Athiest. You know who they are.
The Jewish teacher is Jewish. You know who they are.
Republicans, Democrats, Hippies, We know who they are.
The Christian teacher…. We know who they are.
Who do we sensor? How do we do it?
Did he injure this kid? We can not judge. If Freshwater is released from his position, a whole new can of worms will be opened. This case will be used as a platform and our rights as Americans will be narrowed. If you believe it is about a burn… you are mistaken. Our kids are subjected to all kinds of abuse in school (from teachers and peers).
Please consider all aspects of this case and don’t do it quickly. It is not a perfect world we live in. During times like this we need to offer understanding and forgiveness to all those involved.
To “Frustrated” – read the entire report! No so bad — indeed! There were many instances in the report of inappropriate behavior warranting Mr F’s firing, not just the crossburning which in itself was enough. To the Mount Vernon News – Have you published the entire report? I read in in the Dispatch. You may well have published it and I might have missed it. If not, PLEASE publish or republish it so that the comments written here are informed ones. To “Brant” – What a hate monger you are — and you call yourself a Christian? Who are you to set in judgement of atheists? Jesus would be ashamed of you.
this isnt about religion. this isnt about persecuting religious beliefs.
He was in the wrong. He harmed a child physically, and had no respect for the rules of public schools. He should be fired, and have his teaching license removed for life.
If we want to have our schools be the envy of the world. We must hold our teachers to a higher standard.
Wow Stephanie…you really should spell check or grammar check your post before sending it…very difficult to read…
This case has been blown totally out of proportion. I can understand why private schools and home schooling are the way of the future. Public education has become a sad joke.
Easy for you all to say to terminate him. He is trying to save his job for pete’s sake. Wouldn’t you? He feels he didn’t do anything wrong, therefore he is fighting. There is nothing wrong with someone fighting for their rights. If you were terminated and accused for things you didn’t do, what would you do in a situation like that? You would fight tooth and nail to keep your job. I know I would. These are tough tough times. And these are not times to be looking for a job, especially when you get older. Let him keep his job. It’s his right. Put yourself in his shoes.
Brant
There are many religions that accept Evolution. And many believers in a higher being that have no problem reconciling their religious faith and scientific theory. Believing in Evolution does not make you an atheist. Evolution is Science not religion. The Catholic church has long accepted Evolution and they are a Christian denomination. Teaching any particular religious faith is not allowed because of the diversity of belief systems in the public school. If we start teaching all religious faiths in the schools, which one of the many denominations of each religion will be taught and by whom. That’s why we attend church for our religious faith, so we can worship with people who have the same perspective on religion as we do. Let’s face it, the various denominations of Christianity don’t agree with each other. How do you expect to teach one perspective of Christianity in the school?, let alone the many denominations of other faiths.
I don’t agree with Mr. Freshwater’s version of Christianity and I don’t hold his perspectives. Therefore, I don’t want him teaching my children his version of faith. If my children attend a public school, I should be free from worrying about what religious teachings they are being taught…..BECAUSE THEY SHOULD NOT BE RECEIVING RELIGIOUS EDUCATION AT A PUBLIC SCHOOL.
Definition of Atheism
A´the`ism
n. 1. The disbelief or denial of the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.
(source:http://www.webster-dictionary.net/d.aspx?w=atheism)
Definition of Neutral
Neu´tral
a. 1. Not engaged on either side; not taking part with or assisting either of two or more contending parties; neuter; indifferent.
Schools are to be Neutral. They do not teach Atheism, they teach neutrality. If they taught atheism they would be telling students why they shouldn’t believe in a God.
Children can pray in school, bring Bibles to school etc. It just can’t be teacher/school led, and a school can’t favor one religion over another.
Brant, who says athiest are miserable? Have you asked any?
Personally, I’m tired of it. Get through the hearing and no matter the results may we all be able to get on with our lives.
What I really think that Mr Freshwater should think of looking for another job when they fired for the first time. So want he did go againist saying they shouldn’t fire him at all. He needs to give up and find another place to work like a christian school probably would be glad to hire him. Mr Freshwater knows want he did was wrong and he doesn’t think he didn’t do anything wrong. I should don’t want him to be my kids teacher at all.
If atheism can be taught in schools, so should every other belief. Why does the majority of America need to bow down to the minority who are against it? Atheists have nothing to look forward to in their miserable lives and want to make the rest of the world miserable as well. The Tesla coil thing shouldn’t even be an issue. Science teachers have been using those for years. I personally have had one used on me much more powerful than the one he used. That kid must have overly sensitive skin or something.
Darcy West : “I have followed this from the beginning. My daughter would come home really upset that this was happening to her teacher. The board allowed someone to sit in her class which was not fair to her education.”
When I was in first grade the teacher put tape over the mouth of my best friend….because she talked a lot. ;-) Johanna told her mother, who went to the school – and they said they couldn’t do anything without proof. They called me down to the principal’s office and asked a lot of questions about the teacher. Who knows what I said….I was very scared about being in trouble, getting in trouble with the teacher, or worse the principal. My own mother and this girl’s mother began taking turns sitting in class until they had enough information to bring to the school board, and the teacher was fired.
Yes, it is upsetting to have outsiders in the classroom. It is upsetting that the TSA makes us take our shoes off at the airport. But, in both instances – wildly varied I agree they are – these measures were taken to protect the students AND the teacher being accused.
Perhaps this teacher is liked and loved by your daughter. That doesn’t mitigate the fact that he crossed the line with another – or many other – students. If the administration had discovered a teacher was a sexual offender, would you want him/her allowed to stay to teach because he/she never did anything to your kid, or you never saw it happening; or, he/she didn’t do it at your school, but another he’d/she’d worked at?
There is pain felt by everyone in our area I believe. None of us wants to see the turmoil or know that our students and teaching staff are going through this. None of us wants to see this played out in the public eye. BUT – Mr. Freshwater is the one who could stop all this. He started it. NO ONE ELSE DID! This family didn’t come forward in the very beginning because of fear over what has surely come to pass in the media. They didn’t want to publically flay Mr. Freshwater. But, just like my mother and best friend’s mother in first grade, they made the only choice possible for the protection of their child and others who might suffer the same harm.
I have no sympathy left for Mr. Freshwater.
TO WJW…what bible do you read?
Frustrated- Read the report! The pictures were taken that night and it WAS reported the NEXT day!
It should not matter what shape the arm symbol was. It is not OK even if it is a circle or a copy of the Mona Lisa! It should not happen at school.
Should he have followed the rules? Probabally. Should he force his religion on others? No. Is he a horrible person for wanting share his beliefs? Absolutely not. Should he be punished? Only if it is proven without a without a shadow of a doubt that he seriously did something wrong then he should be punished but not burned at the stake!
Cut the crap on the whole burnt arm thing though. It looks like a lower case “T” when you look at it one way and an “X” when you look at it to me. Prove to me that Mr. Freshwater intended for it to be a cross representing his religion. DROP IT for crying out loud. Chances are it wasn’t as bad as it is being made out to be. Just because they it’s a cross doesn’t make it a cross that represents anything but a science experiment that didn’t go as intended. His arm didn’t fall off so get over it! Would I be mad if it were my child’s arm. Probabally, but only if it were a seriously painful injury. When was the picture taken if he didn’t report it right away?
I agree with many that this has gone on way too long. Freshwater is intent on driving our school system into the ground. I hope the referee will realize this and take action to bring the hearing to a close. I also think our board really needs to evaluate its administrators that are now in place. Personally, I think a house-cleaning is in order. It would be a Big mistake to rehire Dr. Weston. She is part of the problem as I see it. The community should voice their concerns so we can get our district back on track.
Mr. Freshwater was insubordinate to his superiors. Mr. Keib covered for him for way too long. If he did not believe in evolution, and wanted to teach creationism, he should have taught in a parochial school.
It is not about him having a Bible on his desk. Do you people even read what is being brought out in the hearings? Did you not read the entire investigative report?
My daughter had him too and loved him. Had I known then what he was teaching, I would have complained also.
It is time for Mr. Freshwater to go. Thank God we have new administration that is not afraid of dealing with controversy.
I believe this has been dragged out for way too long and I will blame Mr. Freshwater for that. Whether he wins or loses his appeal, this is a major waste of our taxpayer dollars. He didn’t want to start his appeal sooner, because he was not going to get paid for it. Now, we are paying for the trial/appeal, his salary, the salary of his replacement and the attorney’s representing the Mount Vernon School District (and possibly his too). Seems a bit ridiculous to me! Don’t get me wrong, I understand why he’s doing it. If not for trying to restore his own credibility, then for trying to save his retirement and teaching prospects in the future. I don’t think we can reasonably expect anything else from any person under those circumstances. I just wish this would have not carried over to this school year and probably well into next year’s as well.
sconnor, I will pray for you. it sounds like you can really use God in your life
The only outcome, that is viable and just, for this so called teacher, this sick, deluded zealot, that harmed his students physically, by burning crosses on their arms and by NOT doing his job, in teaching the REQUIRED curriculum and instead, went rogue and taught ignorant, superstitious, religion-saturated creationism, in complete insubordination to his administrators and a blatant disregard to the curriculum set by the state of Ohio, because he deemed it appropriate — IS IMMEDIATE TERMINATION — anything less is morbidly negligent.
Fire Freshwater, NOW.
Koalab,
You are very right the only one that is allowed to judge is God and in the end He will cast judgement on all of us one at a time at the end of our lives and I want to be in His house at the end of my life. God will make the final call at the end and we will see who makes it to His house… And if this wasn’t the first time how did he get by all this time someone must not really be doing their job from the start. Thats alright the children that get in to much trouble instead of making them behave we send to another school with more children that choose the wrong path and thats ok as long as the teachers follow the guidelines and not have a caring what happens to those students thats ok?? Yes he did something wrong he asked for students to do that experiment when he needed to havewritten permission why not just say that know they also said it was a cross that to me in the picture that I seen it looked to close to an X. Then this would have never made it about a Bible and his beliefs.
I have followed this from the beginning. My daughter would come home really upset that this was happening to her teacher. The board allowed someone to sit in her class which was not fair to her education. If the problems were so bad then why would Mr. Freshwater stay in the class. I know that it is his right to stay as long as he was allowed. I always thought that teachers were there for the students. I think if you are not allowed to have a bible on your desk then put it in the desk. There are all kinds of rules and policies that parents think are silly but our children have to follow or they are in trouble. I understand what Mr. Freshwater is fighting for but there are so many troubles in this community. Why can’t we worry about all the people who are losing their jobs that have done nothing to deserve it. One last statement, this case has nothing to do with teen pregnancy. Parents should educate and talk to their own children about that. If everyone is so worried about teen pregnancy spend time with your children and not on your computers. No matter what happens with this case, I hope that it ends soon for all parties involved.
Christians, don’t worry about anything. The time will soon come and we will see who is right and who is wrong. If God told us the truth, we have nothing to worry about, and if he’s not real, we still have nothing to worry about. But for unbelievers, if God is real, they will have a whole LOT to worry about! Just live your life the way you are commanded, and we will see…we will see…
Is this over yet?
Oh! Come on! Fire that guy! And stop wasting money!
Do you realize how much you could have improved the schools with those $200,00 you just threw away?
Fire him, he broke all the rules, and his own contract, and make sure he never teaches in a public school ever again. Separation of Church and State is a Law.
As for Evolution, it is a fact, not a theory. And it is all around you, just take off the blinders and you will see it at work. Like it or not, it is as much a Universal Law as Gravity.
To clarify the next to the last statement, it should read “he doesn’t believe that Cathoics are Christians”.
Robyn – I find it hard to believe that you had Freshwater as a teacher & never heard him teach about religion. I suppose you should have paid more attention in class than.
Michael Small – Why would having more books full of sex (including orgies, bestiality, incest, ect) make for less teen pregnancy?
Sherri – I’m not sure where you got the idea that evolution & homosexuality are in the same category as religion. Teaching evolution is about teaching Science, which is what Freshwater was a teacher of. Now if he had been an English teacher, then he could use the bible for his mythology teachings and it would actually be relevant to his teaching instead of counteractive to it. Homosexuality is also not a religion, so teaching kids to be respectful of gay people isn’t the same as teaching Christianity either. Also, I’m sure there’s not a teaching lesson about being nice to gay people.
Amazed – I’m pretty sure if you’re going to trash talk people’s “English lessons” you should at least try & capitalize the word English.
The Bible – I’ve seen plenty of people fired on the spot for “messing up” at work (I’ve even fired 2 people on the spot myself). Also, he’s been “messing up” for WAY over a decade, how long of a probation period do you think he should get?
Take the “bible on the desk” out of the whole equation, since that’s what Freshwater is trying to make appear to be the real subject, and even take out the “burning of a child” out of the equation. You’re still left with him being insubordinate & going against his teaching guidelines. So, without the “hot story” items you’re still left with more than enough for him to deserve a firing.