Controversial float meant to inspire citizen voices
FREDERICKTOWN — Richard and Jacqueline Ruhl weren’t trying to offend anyone with a float they created for the Fredericktown Tomato Show Parade, they were merely trying to get the attention of their fellow citizens and encourage them to let their voices be heard.
119 Responses to “ Controversial float meant to inspire citizen voices”
cliff, I present no “gulit by associaion”. I only suggest that we judge people to some extent (only),by those they “surround themselves with”as Obama HIMSELF has recommended(look at some who ‘’surround’ Obama:some of his czars,his mother,his mentor are ALL Marxists!—to say nothing of rev Wright’s racism,Van Jones’ racism,Farrakhan(kill jewish babies),the jailed Rezko, the bomb making Ayers couple,etc).). And you avoid EVERYTHING I said about Holdren & his book,a book that discusses forced abortion & sterilization. Instead you offer up the excuse that Holdren wrote his book “30 years ago”. Which means what? Hitler wrote his book,Mein Kamph in 1923,10 years before becoming chancellor of Germany & 16 years before he started WW2 in an attempt to achieve the goals outlined in THAT ‘old’book .Had Hindenburg & the German people paid attention to Hitler’s old book, Hitler may not have become chancellor & WW2 may have been avoided.The age of an author’s book means WHAT? Nothing. I’m only suggesting that Glenn Beck’s reporting on Holdren does bring up things that are worthy of consideration by Americans. And that there may be more substance to Beck’s concerns than the left’s attempted debunking of those concerns suggest. And it also raises questions about both Holdren’s & Obama’s judgement. Here Obama appoints a science czar who’s past science concerning overpopulation is bunk,yet overpopulation,Holdrens earlier concern & field of study is precisely what Obama’s pro immigration policies threaten to achieve. I’ve read the US is among the 5 fastest growing nations. Our high level of immigration is the engine of that growth & consists sudstantially of uneducated immigrants with very high birth rates (& drop out rates).A prime reason population didn’t explode like Holdren’s co-author Paul Erlich very unscientifically predicted is because of high levels of education,just what America’s immigrants LACK. How does Holdren square his concern with overpopulation with his boss’s policies that foster overpopulation? And Holdren’s very own responsibilities as science czar in the fields of global warming & protection of the environment??? Having millions of high reproducing immigrants trade their sandals for carbon footprints & environmental degradation serves Holdren’s concerns HOW? Is he trading his principles for power? Or is his earlier science bogus? If so, what makes him qualified to be a science czar? That those concerns haven’t been raised ain’t my fault. Cliff,did you actually READ the stuff you linked concerning another of Obama’s czar,Cass Sunstein??? Gosh. Beck said ,if I remember right, Sunstein wants “animals to sue people”.Your link further says Beck said “Sunstein doesn’t want you to remove rats from your house”. On your link,Sunstein himself says in removing(killing) rats from your house “everything depends on to what extent the animal in question is capable of suffering’. “If rats are capable of suffering,then their(the rats)interests are relevant to the question of how,and perhaps even WHETHER THEY CAN BE EXPELLED from houses”.So says Sunstein. He includes not just rats but “mosquitoes,cockroaches,mice and squirrels” He also says”we have seen that animals might have rights in a minimal sense OR(!) a MUCH LARGER SENSE”. It seems obvious that if animals have the rights Sunstein implies (he calls himself an “animal RIGHTIST”), then if those rights ever get enshrined in law,you may NOT be able to remove rats,ants,cockroaches,etc from your OWN house—in Sunstein’s OWN WORDS.And animals (their human representatives) COULD ,in fact,SUE PEOPLE. Gosh. Was Beck wrong on the basis of czar Suntein’s OWN WORDS? Or is Beck utterly correct in his view Sunstein is one radical son of a gun? Should Americans be allowed to consider the question?Beck thinks so. And,cliff, you’re picking on the number who voted against the Illinois botched abortion babies bill is legit,but you avoid ,totally and intentionally the REAL issue of Obama’s willingness to subordinate the LIVES of botched abortion babies to his concern for women’s rights & doctors rights. You never addressed ANY of the substantial points I made. Do we have an elected president who will sacrifice LIVING babies to die alone in hospitol trash rooms to his own political concerns,yet appoint a czar whose main concerns are the rights of RATS?!? RATS rights OVER BABIES rights! Picture the Illinois baby who was put into a hospitol trash room to DIE ALONE without the medical care Obama worked so long & hard to deny it.You want suffering? There it is.Cliff, WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? And we smuggly condemen the Germans of Hitler’s time. Obama’s czar worries about the SUFFERING OF RATS & Obama kills a bill designed to provide LIFE SAVING medical to babies ! Babies Obama would let die alone,worrying rather about the suffering of RATS?!? This is where we’ve come as a nation.It is not that far at all from Hitler’s Germany where he preached & many accepted that Jews were the equivalent of “RATS”.Hitler made propaganda films alternating between pictures of jews & their alledged equivalents, RATS. Look’m up. Cry for your country. It is a sorrowful place. As many have noticed,including the Pope,human life is demeaned by us.Obama & his wacko czars demean it. I think just as Hitler demeaned it.Just so. Watch the scene in the movie “Schindler’s List” where nazi’s play classical music as they murder Hitler’s “rats”(jews) in the Warsaw ghetto. That’s the same dehumanization by a high cultured civilazation as Obama & his minions engaged in concerning those of us even more vulnerable than Hitler’s jews—living babies.Where is the outrage?
Bull,
Your facts. Check them.
“Obama was the only Illinois state senator to vote against the bill giving medical care to botched abortion babies”
Wrong. Over 40% of the Senate opposed it.
21 Senators Opposed Senate Bill 1661. Senators Bowles, Geo-Karis (Republican), Hendon, Molaro, Radogno (Republican), Shaw, Smith, Trotter, Viverito and Welch voted present on Senate Bill 1661. Senators Cullerton, Del Valle, Halvorson, Jacobs, Lightford, Link, Madigan, Obama, Parker (Republican), Ronen and Shadid voted no on Senate Bill 1661. [92nd GA, SB 1661, 4/4/02, 3R P; 31-11-10 (BO: N)]
• 22 Senators Opposed Senate Bill 1662. Senators Bowles, Geo-Karis (Republican), Hendon, Molaro, Radogno (Republican), Shadid, Shaw, Trotter, Viverito and Welch voted present on Senate Bill 1662. Senators Cullerton, Del Valle, Halvorson, Jacobs, Klemm (Republican), Lightford, Link, Madigan, Obama, Parker (Republican), Ronen and Smith voted no on Senate Bill 1662. [92nd GA, SB 1662, 4/4/02, 3R P; 30-12-10 (BO: N)]
• Six Republican Senators Opposed One Or All Born Alive Bills. Republican Senator Kathleen Parker voted no Senate Bills 1661 and 1662. Republican Senator Christine Radogno voted present on Senate Bills 1661 and 1662. Republican Senator Adeline Geo-Karis voted present on Senate Bills 1661 and 1662. Republican Senator Dick Klemm voted no on Senate Bill 1662. [92nd GA, SB 1093, SB 1094, SB 1095, SB 1661, SB 1662]
You also said,
“After he left the Illinois legislature,the bill passed.”
Not quite, Bull. There’s a logical fallacy in your assumption. Maybe the bill changed, and that’s why it happened. In fact, that is what happened. There was a doctor-intimidation measure in the bill that many opposed. Born Alive act only passed when the doctor-intimidation measure was dropped in 2005 (after Obama had moved to the U.S. Senate).
…I could go on, Bull, but why? It doesn’t seem to do any good. I’ve brought up plenty of facts, yet you continue to pull out rumors and myths spread by unreliable pundits.
Bull said, “As I mentioned in an above post,lots of women supported Hitler too.”
Seriously? You’re still bringing up Hitler? Do you know how you sound?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, Bull. And that’s what you get and what gets displayed when you repeat things you’ve heard about the “czars.” All of the issues you’ve mentioned are far more complex than your post implies.
Here are quotes from Cass Sunstein’s book along with Beck’s lies about them.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200909100053
Should make you wonder what else Beck slyly misrepresents.
You criticize Holdren for someone he wrote a book with 30 years ago because that author wrote another book that was incorrect. (And, yes, I’m familiar with “The Population Bomb,” and I’ve made fun of it, too). Your logic is bewildering. Guilt by association. Guilt for writing with someone who was wrong three decades ago.
Don’t you think it’s strange that the only “dirt” for him is from 30 years ago?
Yet, you side with Beck who is wrong about a lot of facts now.
Holy hell, you have no doubt”in your mind”that I am a “racist?You continue your name calling. I believe you when you say have no doubt in your mind…you are as much a true believer as the most ardent backwoods Arkansas evangelical wacko . The doubt you don’t have is a prerequiste to intellectual freedom. Sorry.Have your democrat party meetings taken to speaking in tongues,yet? You say we are the only western country that doesn’t have FREE medicine. Name ONE western country that has “free” medicine. Go on ,name one. You say you are a teacher? Do your students a favor & quit.Get an MBA(masters of business administration) at one of our heavily govt subsidized universities(Inflation U) & create economy killing ‘credit default swaps’based on subprime mortgages . Leave the kids alone…destroy America that way instead. I say the Founders DID trust Americans but they created not only the electoral college, but the undemocratic supreme court and had senators elected by state legislatures ,not popular vote. Do you know why they did that? And could yet still trust the American people? Nope,didn’t think you did. Try the MBA route to national destruction,please. Or maybe become a czar and write books about the dangers of overpopulation like Obama’s “science”czar….then work for a president who favors explosive levels of immigration,both legal & illegal of persons with very high reproduction rates(drop out rates too).More amnesty too. Makes sense only in ObamaWorld. You wonder how I got out of high school? So do I. It was SOoooo BAD. NEA:NO bureacrat left behind.
bullregard cube. you are a racist. i have no doubt in my mind.
your arguments are full of hate and you actually have no ideas in how to fix the problems of our nation.
the problem republicans are having at this moment is that if Obama’s policies prove to work than, the years that they screamed that lower taxes and less regulation are the answer to all of America’s problems will be false. The economic policies of the Republicans have failed. They failed for 70 years from Lincoln to Hoover. It was a Democrat that saved capitalism. It is the democrats that are saving us from another great depression. Health Care is a Moral right. not something that we should be making money from. We are the ONLY western country that doesnt have some sort of Free Medicine for its citizens. All the scare tactics of republicans shouldnt stop us from wanting more from our government.
Also you say the founders trusted the people. Obviously you dont know anything about the electoral college. If they did trust the people, why oh why would they have such clause in the constitution. Also. If our founders thought that we could elect our own leaders, why then didnt they have primaries back then. Why were nominees chosen in backrooms of the elite.
reading your comments makes me wonder how you got out of high school
cliff, Obama was the only Illinois state senator to vote against the bill giving medical care to botched abortion babies who live INDEPENDANTLY of their mothers. He not only voted against it but as a committee chairman KILLED an amendment utilizing federal langauge removing all doubt that the bill could be used as an attack on Roe vs Wade. His unconcealed zeal in not jeoprodizing Roe at the expense of the LIVES of botched abortion babies is obvious from his committee comments.He opposed the bill for 3 years ,was the only state senator to oppose the bill,and as committee chairman kept it from a vote for 22 months .He made no attempt to change the wording he claimed he objected to and killed an amendment designed to address his concerns. After he left the Illinois legislature,the bill passed. Was he willing to kill living babies in the interests of the greater glory of abortion rights as Hitler was willing to kill jews to make the world “safe”? Later, 16 congressmen voted agaisnt a similar federal bill(that passed).I presume they were all democrats no doubt vigorously supported by feminists with an equally strong desire to give no pretense to a challenge of Roe while happily accepting the murder of botched abortion babies. As I mentioned in an above post,lots of women supported Hitler too. US femnists are only now attempting to deal with the challange that presents to many feminist assumptions. Obama was most definitely on the extreme end of this issue. Maybe that explains the extreme,radical nature of his czar appointments. There’s Van Jones who Obama asked to quit after Glenn Beck revealled Jone’s self avowed communism & Jones clearly racist remarks and his belief that Bush sponsored the attack on 9/11. You singled out one of the criticised czars,Mr Holdren as an example of Beck’s reporting errors. Beck said either that Holder wrote about OR Holder advocated(not sure which) forced abortions and sterilizing populations by treating their water supplies. Holder co authored a book that mentioned those things.The other author was Paul Erlich who wrote “The Population Bomb” predicting(using the WRONG MATHEMATICAL FORMULA) that in the 1970s & 1980s the world would suffer catastrophic overpopulation resulting in mass death.He approved of “starving populations”to death that did not take the necessary measures to hold population in check—using the WRONG math—an associate & co-author with our “science” czar,Obama appointee Erick Holdren. Do you feel confident in an associate of a demonstrated quack like Erlich? Who couldn’t even get the math right? Holdren is overseeing global warming! Wonder if his like minded “scientists” have the math right on that??? Do I hear a “quack quack”? Is alchemy making a comeback ? Holdren & Erlich did write that forced population measures were not required at this time(30 years ago) and if voluntary ones are introduced now, the forced abortion & sterilzation might be avoided in the future. Had the future turned out as bad as Erlich’s unmathamatical fantasies predicted,it seems both WERE suggesting forced controls would be needed,as such could they not but FAVOR them? How about the czar(forget which one) who thinks animals should sue people? Check that one,cliff. And I NEVER said czars were an Obama invention or even brought up the issue of confirmation. They’ve been around for decades.That is NOT an issue I brought up as your response assumes. Given the radical bunch of czars Obama has appointed, I most definitely am for senate confirmation of ALL czars so the people can know what the Hell is governing them—and outlawing the Obama practise of pushing bills thru congress unread except by his favored lobbiests(taking full advantage of the economic crisis as his advisor Rhom Emmnaul advised—Hitler was known for the exact same tactic).Now the democrats refuse to put on govt websites the CONCEPTS that underlie their healthbill as well as the bill itself as finally written saying the “people wouldn’t understand it”.Like cliff,they don;t trust the people either. Indeed, the wackiness of those who Obama surrounds himself with should be put front & center before all of us. It’s not too much of a stretch to see similarities in Hitler’s ideology of Arayan superiority. The same wildness of imagination is present in both cases. cliff, you say you are “SHOCKED” that I’d be so misinformed as to think the Founders gave absolute control to the people. I am simply SHOCKED (well,sorta anyway) that you think they did not. Wherein does soverignty lie in our system? The ultimate authority & possesor of all political power? The tooth fairy? Americans can pass any amendment to constitution, write a NEW consititution, impeach,pack the court,etc ANYTIME THEY WANT TO. The Founders made it that way because they TRUSTED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE( that is NOT to say they’d trust all people in all cultures for self rule). You’re dragging out the difference between democracy & a republic is,as would be more than obvious to the great men you quote,IRRELEVENT to the ultimate locus of political power in America. You mistake the mechanics of our democracy with it’s power.Gosh.
I am soooo tired of the hatefulness I hear/see every day in this country. Where did we all go wrong? Why can’t we act like civilized people anymore? How can any of us raise decent kids when they see the “adults” shouting, cussing, threatening and insulting anyone who doesn’t agree with them? I can’t understand anyone wanting to listen to someone like Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck. It’s that kind of talk that starts riots and then people get hurt or worse. I don’t want to see that happen. I love this country and call me naive, but I would rather have a lovely parade and listen to everyone go “awwww…isn’t that cute?” than “oh my god, what is that?”
Bull, I gave you a response to the “botched abortion babies.” I even gave you evidence that you’ve been misinformed about Obama regarding that issue. Apparently, you ignored it.
I didn’t just dismiss your concerns about the passage of bills. I pointed out that citizens have never really had the possibility of reading the bills before Congress before they were passed. So, by that measure, we’ve always been under totalitarian rule according to you. You do see that, right? How could they before the Internet? As for people in Congress, it’s fairly common for them to vote on bills without having read them. You do know that many didn’t read the Patriot Act, right? And that many are told how the “party” is voting and they simply go that route.
I don’t see why your bigger concern isn’t how many votes are simply bought by lobbyists. Just for health care, there are six lobbyists for every member of Congress. If you’re really concerned about the power of the people being taken away, you should be worried about that.
And, yes, the Founders didn’t trust the people. They didn’t give “ABSOLUTE CONTROL” to the people. I’m shocked that you’ve been so misinformed about the founding of the US.
The word democracy doesn’t appear in the Constitution or the Declaration. Instead, Constitution’s Article IV, Section 4, guarantees “to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government.” Elected representatives were a check on direct democracy. The representatives make and vote on the laws, not the citizens.
Here’s Alexander Hamilton: “It has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity.”
Here’s James Madison: “democracies have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they are violent in their deaths.”
Here’s John Marshall: “You cannot exercise the powers of government personally yourselves. You must trust to agents.” He said this in the context of recognizing that elected representatives’ use of power may not benefit the people.
The Founders didn’t want anyone to have absolute control. They wanted the people (well, landowners) to be able to elect and then “fire” representatives, which was a major form of control. But not absolute. They recognized that absolute control could lead to a “tyranny of the majority.” And they also agreed with Edmund Burke about how representatives should not simply bend to the will of the people at all times.
By the way, I just love how both Obama and I have become similar to Hitler by the end of your post. Does that happen with everyone you disagree with?
Please, please, expand your knowledge beyond Glenn Beck. He’s an entertainer, and he says what he says for ratings. He shouldn’t be treated as a primary lens on the world. Before now saying that the US has the “best health care system in the world,” he was trashing it when he was on CNN. Ah, you might say that the “liberal” CNN forced him to do that, but it should also make you wonder how pliable Beck is to whatever network he works for.
And, actually, there are plenty of responses to Beck’s “information” on the czars.
“The quotations used to suggest that Dr. Holdren supports coercive approaches to limiting population growth were taken from a 1977 college textbook on environmental science and policy, of which he was the third author. The quoted material was from a section of the book that described different possible approaches to limiting population growth and then concluded that the authors’ own preference was to employ the noncoercive approaches before the environmental and social impacts of overpopulation led desperate societies to employ coercive ones. Dr. Holdren has never been an advocate of compulsory abortions or other repressive means of population limitation.”
Beck was taking a few lines out of context from a book that is over 1000 pages long, printed over 30 years ago.
Beck has also claimed that these czars (Bush had over 30 czars, by the way) were appointed solely by Obama and not the Senate. Why don’t you look for yourself, Bull? If you do, you’d find out that there have been at least 8 Senate-confirmed positions.
Fox News has even called out these lies. http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/16/fox-debunks-czars/
Dear Readers and Community Members:
I have not had the opportunity to read postings until today.
Don’t forget: The 3rd Monday of the Month-Up for Discussion 7pm-downtown coffee shop in Mount Vernon, where we can take away our masks and speak to one another face to face.
Mary
Holy Hell, you don’t like wikipedia? Try reading the books I mentioned a few posts above(written by a Nobel laureate & other award winners). And comparing Hitler to Obama is RACIST?!? You say you have STUDENTS? Gosh. You call them names too, rather than DEAL with their arguments? Name calling(the logical PHALLACY of circumstance) is now the prefferred teaching method of the democrat NEA? Only lends even more credibility to Glenn Beck’s (& MANY others) critique of modern American education. Politically correct irrationalism(redundant) has congured our schools,as most of us know. And your dismissal of Beck( I use him as a source on Obama’s racist,marxist,radical czars—as the New York Times admits it has to do now,also) as an “entertainer”is yet another example of your prefferred method of argument–irrelevent name calling. NO ONE has disputed Beck’s account of Obama’s czars. Obama ,after Beck’s reporting, ASKED czar Van Jones to LEAVE. Obama doesn’t even dispute Beck. But you do. Any RATIONAL grounds for your dispute? Where are they? You included none. You teach “logic”(a bit of ridicule is fair—after all,you called me a racist)? And what do you think of Obama’s saying”typical white persons”hide in their anti-immigrant feelings,religion,and guns? How is that different from saying “typical black persons hide in watermelons”? What say ye? Or his self-described marxist czar ,Van Jones saying ”white poison blacks”? Or,for that matter, Obama’s rev Wright of TWENTY YEARS saying “whites invented AIDS to kill blacks”(but elected one president anyway)? Or Wright’s & Obama’s Chicago associate,the black Moslum Farrakhan advising his Chicago followers to “kill jewish babies”? Did the olyimpic committe deny the olyimpics to Chicago because of rampant black racism? What about that,Holy Hell? Or is your concern about racism only about the racisms of which you dissaprove? If so, doesn’t that make YOU a racist? What say ye? Cliff, botched abortion babies were allowed to die,alone,without medical treatment. Botched abortion babies have survived to lead full lives,if ALLOWED TO. The nurse who held the botched abortion baby in a hospitol trash room until it died has testified to the event & Obama was the ONLY Illinois state senator to vote to CONTINUE to deny medical care to such babies. I ask again(hopefully you won’t ignore the question again) ,how does Obama’s acceptance of the de-humization of babies differ from Hitler’s de-humanizatin of those he regarded as sub-human? After Holy Hell calls me a ‘racist’,favor me with a reply. Please. And Cliff, yeah, Hitler’s national socialism never confiscated the means of production(the common definition of socialism) but it did control it,absolutely. Hitler’s socialism consisted of the most heinous & freedom destroying kind–community organizing. He created a society of communalism(Hitler youth, various social organizations) that supplied a sense of community at the cost of individuality & freedom—the freedom to disagree— much like political correctness attemtps to do here,today—such as calling those with whom you dissagree names like ‘racist’ as a subsitute for rational debate. I’m not sure Hitler’s community organizations promoted prostitution by underage illegal aliens & advised they lie & avoid taxes and engaged in voter fraud in an attempt to pervert the nation’s democratic representation(apportionment) like Obama’s govt subsidized community organization called ACORN did(does). Might have,but I doubt it. Your dismissil of my comparing the perversion of the constitutional hope that congress would ,in fact,be a deliberative body and not pass huge bills UNREAD with totalitarian methods of “legislation” is rather silly. I’ll just leave that one. And Cliff,you say our Founders did not “trust the people”? Why’d they give ABSOLUTE CONTROL of this nation TO the people,then?ABSOLUTE! If you really believe what you say, then you can consider your statement as yet another similarity to Hitler — and Obama’s marxist mother,his marxist mentor & marxist czars & gun controllers—all of whom share a distrust of the people. As did that consumate mass murderer on the left,Joe Stalin.
Bull,
Regarding Obama denying “health care to botched abortion babies,” I think you’ve been misinformed. I don’t know what your evidence is, but I’ve heard this claim before. All evidence I’ve seen is from people misunderstanding the nature of the bills that were put before Obama. They used sly tactics–pretending to be about “botched abortions” or “live-birth abortions” when they were really about ending abortion altogether–so that anyone voting against them would look bad.
http://mediamatters.org/research/200802050010
Without your specific evidence, I’m not sure what else to say on that. And I hope you check out that link and do more research that isn’t in the right-wing echo chamber.
I’m going to move right past many of your Hitler comparisons because they just don’t make any sense. These aren’t meaningful comparisons that tell us anything worthwhile. For instance, you say Hitler rose to power partially based on his “efforts at COMMUNITY ORGANIZING,HMMMM HMMMM HMMM.”
Sincerely, I don’t get it. So, anyone who is a socialist and has done community organizing…will become Hitler? If they won’t become Hitler, then WHY make the comparison?
Yes, women supported Hitler. Women supported Obama. Women…also supported Palin. Women also supported Bush. The comparison is meaningless. My critique in the earlier post was to point out how any specific implications you were making were meaningless because Hitler’s female supporters were not feminists. Again, a meaningless comparison.
You said “similarities can be made between Obama and Hitler.” Sure. But that doesn’t make them meaningful. And you’ve yet to argue what makes those comparisons worth making. Do we really learn anything from it?
Near the end, you say this:
“democrats REFUSE to post their various healthcare schemes on the web for ALL Americans to study PRIOR to a vote. This tendancy toward uninformed voting on huge bills that are unread by not only congress but the people smacks of which? The deliberative function assigned to congress & thought so CRUCIAL to the operation of our democracy by our Founders…or the tyrannical exercise of power by Hitler’s Rietchstag?”
I’m not sure where to begin. If you had just stopped with the first sentence, I could sympathize with your complaint. It would be nice for that information to be available for Americans. But the Web is a mid-1990s invention, so I’m not sure how you think people before the Internet read all of the bills that went before Congress since the inception of the country.
And do citizens themselves vote on the bills? No. So, I think you’re confusing a democracy with a republic, which is what we’ve always been. The Founders, by the way, didn’t trust the people.
As for uninformed Congress voting on bills, that is nothing new. (Patriot Act? And that was hardly the first time.)
I don’t see how any of that indicts Obama or brings in a valid Hitler comparison. And complaining about such things can be done without Hitler. I wish everyone would quit digging him up.
Dingo, you are pretty on the money. I read a 9th grade history book used in the Me Vernon schools a few years ago. Lots of pages on the 60’s & the civil rights movement,feminism,treatment of Japanese residents during WW2,et al. Only one and one half columns on WW2 itself. Litle on the civil war.You’d have thought we are the worst nation in all history and are awaiting salvation from the left. I didn’t know Ariel is thinking about leaving America but with the coming explosion in healthcare taxes,the cap & trade loonacy and Obama handing the auto industry over to unions,who can blame them? It’s not for nothing the mainstream press in America makes little of Obama’s appointing czars who are self-avowed marxists & want to “de-industrialize”America and spread the proceeds around the world in reparation for America’s “crimes”. We wouldn’t know that about Obama’s czars without Glenn Beck & FOX News telling us(ACORN either). Even the New York Times now admits it lost credibility by not reporting those stories and has ordered it’s staff to MONITOR FOX for the news! The only healthy ‘change’ I’ve seen in the Obama era. We have set out to destroy our own….our own culture,traditions & self-reliance & are quite successful at it. We no longer even have borders. Want to strike a blow for a strong America? RECALL ZACK SPACE.
I didnt know that the mount vernon area had such experts on history that they would refer to Wikipedia as their sole source. As I tell my students. “If you want the wrong information, please use wikipedia. You will fail my class. If you want to pass. Do the research yourself, because wikipedia is wrong most of the time.”
For all of you who agree with Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, most of the fox news reporters, Kieth Obermann, Rachel Maddow ect ect ect. PLEASE GET YOUR OWN OPINION. I know it is hard and it may even make your brain hurt just alittle. but once you realize that most of these people are entertainers you will realize that they are indeed not that knowledgeable.
Glenn Beck had a show in arizona that resembled that of the morning zoo on WNCI. Bill O’Reily did an entertainment nightly show, and Keith Obermann did sportscenter. Three guys who are entertainers not Political Science Scholars. do you really think Glenn Beck cares about anything other than his ratings.
Also comparing Obama to Hitler. = you are a racist.
You know its good to see people like the Ruhls around. I don’t necessarily take their side but it brings back something we “Americans” have forgotten… History.
I look through and read these comments, and I sure someone will argue mine and he** I might argue back haha I’m no quaker, I’m American. But we are fighting each other here not the problem.
The government has us divided. Most of you swear to republican or democrat, smoker, non-smoker whatever. The Civil war had us divided and who won? The government won!!
We Americans have forgotten what makes us Americans. OUR PRIDE.
Our pride that 56men stood beside each other, shoulder to shoulder and signed a paper stating
“we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”
What does that mean to this country today?? The preamble isn’t even in a current 4th grade history book!! “We the people” isn’t a phrase known by our coming generations.
Our rights lie in writing that “That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it” (there is more to this for the un-educated)
There are many things we can do, but for us who have forgotten our history, the history will repeat itself!!
Just this past week our America celebrated Communist day by lighting the Empire State building! Back in the 60’s we would have arrested anyone who claimed communism. Why are do we have a communist running for the mayor of Cleveland?
Everyone is pointing at Obama, and yeah he is the lead man. What about our representatives? What are they doing for us? Why are they coming to the town meetings and telling us that we’re stupid and we don’t know anything about the health care plan. We put these people in office, who are they to tell us we’re stupid?
We Americans don’t care though, we’ll just stand back and get in line to receive our handouts from the government. They’ll take care of us. They’ll separate us Peasants\Government.
What happened to the Whig Parties? They were formed for us to stick together and fight against autocratic rule, communism and totalitarianism. But we got separated along the way and was left with Democrats, Republicans and GREED.
We would rather be politically correct, hide in our cookie cutter houses and read this gossip rag than to get up, get out and learn your history.
Everyone can take a stand, and we can do it together. We can bring our work back here, and we can keep our money here. I don’t know if anyone read between the lines a few weeks ago or not, but a big company in Mount Vernon called her way out of this country!!
Karen Buchwald spoke on Cap and Trade!! She said that Ariel wasn’t immune to leaving the country!! Do you think she is the only one?? She wants more money, and she found her way out. What about NAFTA?? Think we should do something about that?? Nah we’ll just shop at wal-mart.
Well, I’m going to leave it at this. I can’t wait to see the comments telling me how stupid I am. To see how many people would rather fight their neighbor than for freedom.
Eh, who needs freedom?? The Government will take care of us!!
Cliff, Lets get something straight.I’m NOT comparing Obama to Hitler in terms of the degree of evil the latter manifested. I would not make a float comparing them either. But, similarities can be made by free people and those similarities are not easily dismissed.As they say, “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”—like Obama voting for denying medical care to botched abortion babies & leaving them to die ,alone,in hosptol trash rooms(a documented occurrance).You totally avoided addressing how that dehumization of independant,living human beings differs from Hitler’s dehumization of Jews. Botched abortion babies have survived and lived lives every bit as legit & satisfying as Obama’s. As wikipedia states, “very technically,Hitler was not elected”. Very technically. He did ,after being appointed chancellor by the elected Hindenburg, receive LEGISLATIVE powers from an ELECTED parliament.In a sense,that’s not all that dissimilar from US state legislatures electing US senators,as the constitution originally mandated—in both cases power was ultimately in the hands of the PEOPLE.Are you arguing that Hitler enjoyed the support of only a MINORITY of Germans? Hitler enjoyed huge popular support as evidenced in the 1933 & 34 national VOTES & the elected parliament’s almost absolute support.Hitler had the support of a huge majority of Germans and he only carried to fruition a popular revolution begun at the end of WW1,and he did it by building on previous German developments in the direction of SOCIALISM and by his efforts at COMMUNITY ORGANIZING,HMMMM HMMMM HMMM(see”Road to Serfdom”by Nobel winner Frederick Hayek and “the Meaning of Hitler”Harvard University Press–a best seller in Germany for 43 weeks after it’s publication in 79′) . The specifics of Nazi policy are irrelevent to women’s documented role in supporting him.Support him they did. That they DID support him is beyond dispute—see “Mothers in the Fatherland” by womens’ studies prof,Claudia Koontz ,cited as an ‘outstanding Book in Women’s History at the Berkshire Conference of Women Historians’. The jacket states,”no history of the fascist period can be complete that dismisses –as most have–women’s CRUCIAL role’. A book seen as “indepensable to Holocaust & Feminist studies”. Your statement that Germany had 3 socialist parties that offerred more to women than the Nazi party is both arrogant & wrong. The nazi party,the NATIONAL SOCIALIST party,was a socialist party & women,as opposed to you,thought the nazis offerred them more–& supported it,despite your paternalisim regarding women’s choices. If there’s a point to derive from this it’s the modern feminist assertion that women are ‘nurturing earth mothers’ as opposed to men’s aggression,etc is baloney. Women are every bit as capable of evil as men.A manifestation of “equality” that’s little mentioned by Obama & his hordes of women & feminist supporters. And Hitler himself said “communism & nazism are the SAME”. It was Obama who was raised by an academic MARXISt mother,it’s Obama who wrote in his biography that his MENTOR was a chicago COMMUNIST activist and it IS Obam0 who appointed admitted MARXISTS as czars(during the campaign it was Obama who described this as representing “Kansas values”! Hitler described his values as the German romantic volkgeist of agraian purity–there a Kansas in Germany.). That Hitler himself saw no difference between marxism & national socialism is a point more than worthy of consideration by Americans. Even if THAT point is on a float in Fredericktown. Intersting stuff. As for healthcare , a congressional bureacrat admitted that Americans can go to JAIL for not having health insurance under the democrats’ latest proposals & while the head of Canada’s healthcare system described that system as “imploding”,Canadian provinces are schedualing EMERGENCY MRI’s out to MARCH. And the democrats REFUSE to post their various healthcare schemes on the web for ALL Americans to study PRIOR to a vote. This tendancy toward uninformed voting on huge bills that are unread by not only congress but the people smacks of which? The deliberative function assigned to congress & thought so CRUCIAL to the operation of our democracy by our Founders…or the tyrannical exercise of power by Hitler’s Rietchstag? Explain please.
(Trying this again; first post didn’t go through)
Bullregard,
I didn’t use Wikipedia. The information about Hitler being appointed and not elected is in every biography of Hitler.
I explained that Hitler wasn’t elected, and you responded with a strange collection of historical evidence that doesn’t dispute the facts.
Here’s Ian Kershaw in his biography of Hitler (page xli): “Though he never attained majority support in free elections, he was legally appointed to Chancellor…”
You mention a vote, but that was after Hitler had gained all the power he needed. As Kershaw says in his book The Hitler Myth (page 68): The plebiscite was “little more than a ritual act of acclamation for Hitler’s now constitutionally unlimited Fuhrer authority.”
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with the notion that Hitler had an approval rating of 85%, and that this nearly matches Obama’s votes from Black voters. How is that connection relevant? Are you suggesting that the next Hitler can be seen through numerical forecasting? (Pretty sure Obama got 95% of the black vote, by the way).
And when you bring in the women voters, factual history is also lacking. You briefly consider that they might have been feminists. If you knew anything about Hitler, you would know that he was an anti-feminist, and against women having the vote. However, he knew that women having the vote could be used to the Nazi advantage, saying, “Women will always vote for law and authority and uniform” (Tipton, History of Modern Germany, page 413). You seemed to be implying that the women voting were similarly for both Hitler and Obama, which doesn’t make sense.
The Nazi Party was against married women working, was against women in politics, and considered abortion to be treason if it involved Aryan blood.
You then confidently state that they were “socialists,” but you overlook the fact that there were three socialist parties in Germany to choose from that offered more to women than the Nazis. So, “socialism” and “feminism” cannot be the simple explanations that you want them to be.
People can criticize Obama’s policies without bringing in odd and inaccurate Hitler comparisons. The criticisms will be much stronger and received more respectfully, too.
I like how the person that “stole” something from the float is labeled extreme, but the float owners are not.
MVN, why didn’t you give equal coverage? Why did you just give legitimacy to the Ruhls and their ideas without presenting the other side?
Anyone witness this event, this “stealing” of something off the float? Maybe then the truth can be reported. After being denied entry into the parade, the Ruhls drove the parade route behind the parade, spitting in the faces of the organizers.
I am glad I no longer live in Knox county. People like the Ruhls own the Republican party now. The Republicans will lose big, no Independent or Moderate wants to be associated with this type of hate. They will distance themselves from the Republican party by voting D. I say go ahead, keep going.
Bull,
I didn’t use Wikipedia. That info can be found in any biography of Hitler.
Your version of history, by the way, doesn’t dispute that you were wrong before about Hitler not being elected, but being appointed. You should at least admit you were wrong about Hitler being elected.
Here’s a quote from Ian Kershaw’s “Hitler: A Biography” : “Though he never attained majority support in free elections, he was legally appointed to power as Reich Chancellor just as his predecessors had been…” (xli).
You talk about a nationwide vote as if that were responsible for Hitler’s gaining power. You’re overlooking this fact:
“The Reich Government has enacted the following law which is hereby promulgated.
Section 1. The office of Reich President will be combined with that of Reich Chancellor. The existing authority of the Reich President will consequently be transferred to the Führer and Reich Chancellor, Adolf Hitler. He will select his deputy.
Section 2. This law is effective as of the time of the death of Reich President von Hindenburg.”
That became law before any vote. The vote was a chance for the people to express their approval. Not the same as an election. It was little more than a “ritual act” and “amounted solely to a show of confidence in Hitler” (Kershaw page 68 in book “The Hitler Myth”). He already had power.
The rest of your message about “85%” and “German women” and “Hitler Youth” is almost incomprehensible. Seriously.
Do you really think history works this way? That the world works this way?
Do you really think that the comparisons are truly meaningful? That there really is some deep connection between “black votes” received by Obama and the Nazi approval rate?
Your statement about “German WOMEN” being “nurturing feminists” again shows a basic misunderstanding of history. Hitler was anti-feminist, anti-suffrage for women. However, he realized that women would respond to the authority of the Nazi party. He said, “Women will always vote for law and order and a uniform, you can be sure of that.” (Tipton, History of Modern Germany, page 413). Yes, many women voted for him, but not for your implied reasons.
And you do realize that there were three socialist parties at the time, don’t you? The SPD, the USPD, and the KPD? They advocated the typical feminist issues.
The Nazi Party, however, was against married women working. The Nazis were “against any relaxation in abortion laws.” They didn’t want women holding political offices (Page 72-73, “Working Towards the Fuhrer”). So, women voting for Nazis could hardly be feminists. If they were socialists, they would have voted for the other parties. If you look at the book I cited, you’ll see that there is no single reason why women voted for the Nazi Party.
In a previous post, you said something about being stereotyped as a “nutjob.” I just think you’re misinformed.
People can criticize Obama without making historically inaccurate and strange Hitler comparisons. I would take them more seriously that way.
Cliff,you very selectively reported Wikipedia on Hitler’s rise to power & the German vote.You a “journalist” for MSNBC,PBR? PBS? Folks,”here’s the rest of the story”. In 1933 the Nazis recieved a plurality of votes & were thus the largest party in Germany. In August 1934 a nationwide plebicite(vote) in Germany gave the Nazis 85% (EIGHTY FIVE PERCENT) of the vote(roughly the same proportion of black votes Obama recieved). A large part of the 1934 vote was from German WOMEN. Early “nurturing feminists”,maybe??? They were socialists,at any rate. That was followed by the forced Nazi youth movement that taught little school kids stuff like “hitler is good,jews are bad…..HMMMMM HMMMMM HMMMM” . Sound familiar? Hmmmmm? & in what way is obama’s vote in the Illinois legislature to allow botched abortion babies to die,alone,in hospitol trash rooms different in principle from a nazi death camp?
Those who oppose a single payer system here in the US need to do some research about other countries health care systems. While our taxes may get increased, the increase would still be less than that of the current cost of health care coverage. I understand peoples fears about having the government take over the system, but to oppose such a change only because the folks on fox news or rush limbaugh are scaring you into hatred.
If you oppose such a change. Fine. but please spell out a plan that could help lower health care costs and allow all americans to afford health care.